特别鸣谢 | 首席领先伙伴

RARA 系统定制家居

以构建国际领先的系统定制家居品牌为理念

对“IDD世界领先设计对话”的支持

IDD世界领先设计对话(International Design Dialogue, 以下简称IDD)是广州设计周联合GIA广州设计周全球伙伴联盟中的中外设计领先机构、组织和媒体并携手世界领先系统定制家居品牌RARA共同发起的一项对话世界设计领先者的国际设计交流计划，IDD世界领先设计对话以「MASTER MIND巨匠的思索」为思想探寻的的主旨方向，希冀通过与世界领先设计巨匠对话，探索世界领先设计思想，以世界领先推动中国领先，以中国领先影响世界设计。

IDD世界领先设计对话 · 宣传片

十几年来，广州设计周对于中国设计与世界领先设计思索的交流对话从未停止，IDD世界领先设计对话以对话巨匠、发掘新声、臻选杰作三大内容版块构建年度运营体系，由此推动世界领先设计与中国设计之间的对话交流和发展。

对话巨匠，追随领先

Dialoguing With Masters To Follow The Leading

IDD将面向世界各国在设计领域具有领先建树、实践和思索的业界翘楚或机构，并联动中外领先设计机构、组织和媒体共同推举，每年甄选“IDD年度设计巨匠”，全年通过登门访谈、演讲论坛等形式对话“IDD年度设计巨匠”，探寻巨匠的思索，策划形成访谈视频、专题、出版刊物等内容，分别在HKDC香港设计中心的BODW+/viuTV进行全球播放，并在中外设计领先传播平台和渠道进行宣发和展示，希冀汇集世界领先设计思索，启迪中国乃至世界设计产业的更新发展。

对话巨匠，追随领先 | VOL.16

Filippo Gabbiani&Andrea Destefanis

Kokaistudios创始人及首席建筑师

Founder&Principal Architect

上海 Shanghai

KOKAISTUDIOS

Kokaistudios是一家涵盖建筑及室内设计的事务所，在业界屡获殊荣，由意大利建筑师Filippo Gabbiani和Andrea Destefanis于2000年联合创立于威尼斯。自2002年公司总部设于上海以来，Kokaistudios已拥有60余位杰出设计师，并成长为一家多元文化背景的设计公司，与客户协同合作，完成了涵盖亚洲、中东、欧洲及北美洲的众多创新设计项目。Kokaistudios专注于发展文化、商业、酒店及零售等方面的项目，更广泛涉及城市更新与文化遗产再造的项目，旨在为项目所在的城市增添蓬勃生机。

Kokaistudios is an award winning architecture and interior design firm founded in 2000 in Venice by Italian architects Filippo Gabbiani & Andrea Destefanis. Headquartered in Shanghai since 2002 we have grown into multi-cultural firm of 60 people working on a global scale with projects in Asia, the Middle East, Europe and North America. Kokaistudios partners with our clients to collaboratively develop innovative & ground breaking projects in diverse fields of design. Primarily focused on developing cultural, corporate, commercial, hospitality & retail projects we have also worked extensively on urban regeneration projects involving the requalification of heritage locations. Kokaistudios aims to develop projects that add positively to the built environment and social fabric of the cities and countries in which they are located.

- IDD对话巨匠系列专访 -

本期走进知名建筑事务所Kokaistudios

对话Filippo Gabbiani和Andrea Destefanis

一起探讨知名建筑事务所背后的领先意识

广州设计周 x RARA x Belong波噜昂 联袂巨献

对话巨匠： 走进知名建筑事务所Kokaistudios · 访谈正片

Filippo Gabbiani&Andrea Destefanis

Kokaistudios创始人及首席建筑师

Founder&Principal Architect

Andrea Destefanis（左）Filippo Gabbiani（右）

Filippo Gabbiani 出生于意大利威尼斯一个艺术家和玻璃制造巨匠辈出的名门，自幼展现出对艺术和设计的多重兴趣。Filippo Gabbiani的事业起步于与其家族合作设计、制作艺术玻璃制品，他毕业于威尼斯建筑大学，其毕业成果是一项由欧共体资助的、关于建筑可替代性能源运用的创新性研究。在遇到合伙人Andrea Destefanis共同创立Kokaistudios之前，Filippo出于本能地对不同学科和多元文化的好奇心，先后闯荡于欧洲数国和美国，曾与数家世界知名的建筑、室内设计和工业设计等领域的事务所合作。在上海成立事务所后，Filippo肩负着Kokaistudios的使命常驻亚洲，致力于可持续性发展建筑的文化推广及亚洲遗迹建筑的保护和修复，并继续着对艺术玻璃设计的研究。

Born in Venice, Italy, from a famous family of artists and glass makers, Filippo Gabbiani developed very early a multidisciplinary interest for art and design. Starting to cooperate with his family in designing and producing artistic glass he completed his studies at University of Architecture of Venice where he graduated with an innovative research sponsored by the European Community on usage of alternative energies in architecture. Following his instinctive curiosity for different disciplines and other cultures he worked in several European countries and in the U.S.A. cooperating with prestigious firms of architecture, interior and industrial design prior to the founding of Kokaistudios.

Andrea Destefanis出生于意大利都灵的一个舞台艺术之家，很早就培养出了对视觉艺术和舞台布景的浓厚兴趣。在高雅的文化环境中成长并移居威尼斯在那里完成了其在威尼斯建筑大学的学业后，Andrea开始了同多个建筑事务所合作的职业生涯，开发了很多获奖的建筑和城市规划项目。受其对不同设计领域的个人兴趣的驱动，Andrea成立了以协同合作为概念的工作室，致力于研究计算机平面设计的创新方法。2000年他遇到了Filippo Gabbiani， 由于两人有着共同的建筑理念和对遗迹修护及环境设计的浓厚兴趣，他们开始了深度的合作并最终成立Kokaistudios，2002年Kokaistudios在上海成立事务所后，Andrea长期移居亚洲，在为事务所努力打拼的同时继续其对社会和城市环境可持续发展工具的研究和推广。

Born in Turin, Italy from a family of theater artists, Andrea Destefanis developed very early a strong interest for visual arts and scenography. Growing up in a refined cultural environment he moved to live in Venice where completing his education at University of Architecture of Venice he started to cooperate with several architectural firms and developed award winning projects in architecture and city planning. Moved by his personal interest in different fields of design he founded a co-operative studio focused on research and developing early innovative architectural computer graphic design tools prior to the founding of Kokaistudios.

以下对话中

Filippo代表Filippo Gabbiani，Andrea代表Andrea Destefanis

QUESTION ABOUT LEADERSHIP

关于领先

Q1

作为设计行业领导者，如何理解领先？如何保持领先？

As a leader in the design industry, how do you understand “leadership”? How to stay ahead?

Filippo ： 当人们能从你的作品中汲取到灵感，激励他们获得不同的视野或信念。以积极的方式影响到人们时，这是非常棒的。这是一件非常美好的事情，但这不是我们刻意追求的。这是一种积极的副作用。非常幸运的是，有时它就这样发生了。

It's very nice when people recognize in your work an inspiration that inspire them for a different vision or a different belief. To be able to influence someone in a positive way. It's a very, very beautiful thing, but it's not what we are aiming to do in our job. So it's just a side effect. Sometimes, luckily, it happens.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地 ©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：我们不认为自己是设计浪潮的领导者，我们不是来教人们该怎么做的，我们仍在学习。 当我们每完成一个项目后，你知道我们会做什么吗？ 我们会去设计的项目现场，藏在一边并观察人们如何使用它，因为他们才是我们项目的评判者。 我们去是为了向他们学习，而不是去教他们我们做了什么。 这是一种完全不同的方法。

We don't consider ourselves leaders in movement or we are not there to teach as I said. We are there to learn. So Andrea and I, after we finish a project, you know what we do? We go to hide ourselves in the project that we design and observe the people how they're going to use. Because they are the judge of what we did. And instead to go there and lecture them about what we did, we go there to learn from them what we did. So it's a completely different approach.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地 ©KOKAISTUDIOS

QUESTION ABOUT LEADERSHIP

关于领先

Q2

意大利文化背景对你们在中国实践的启发和帮助是什么？

How has your Italian background inspired and aided your practice in China?

Andrea：意大利的建筑、意大利的历史，每一个新时代都建立在前一个时代之上。很多时候人们都认为意大利是最大程度实践历史建筑保护的国家。我们始终保留物质性，我们历史的一部分，我们建筑的一部分，但是你总要向前，需要继续在上面添加。

That is, somehow, the Italian building, Italian history. Every new era builds on the top of the previous one. Many times, there is this idea that Italy is about preservation at the maximum level. We preserve always the materiality, part of our history, part of our building. But you always go on, add on the top of it.

我相信我们最重要的任务之一，是在新旧之间建立一种非常牢固的关系。这个我们之前讨论过。这个可能是意大利背景对我们在中国实践的启发。改造一个旧建筑意味给它一个新未来，例如一个新功能、一个新故事，使它经久不衰。

So I think, I believe that one of the our most important things is always trying to create a very strong relation between old and new. This one we were discussing before. It's probably coming from this. It actually means to, give them, the building itself a new future like a new function, a new story, is to make its life longer.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

CITIC SQUARE RENOVATION 中信泰富广场改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：首先，意大利拥有非常多元的文化体系。因为意大利的统一并不是很久，在这之前它是多个王国和小共和国的联合体，所以在城市间与地区间，我们都有非常强烈的文化差异。这在某种程度上给了我们灵感和文化上的一种训练，更多地去分析具体的地区和每个地区的具体特色文化。

Italy, first of all, it's a very fragmented cultural system. Because Italy became Italy very recently, before it was a conglomerate of kingdoms and small republics. So we have a very, very strong differentiations of culture, city by city, region by region. And this somehow give us this kind of inspiration and cultural training. To relate more to the location, the specific characteristic culture of each location. And then Andrea and I before founding Kokaistudios, we started to work worldwide. Many many different countries, work in the United States, in Canada and in Europe. And then North Europe, and then Asia. So we always have a very wide vision about each culture we were entering.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo： 在某种层面说，这让我们相信建筑与其所属的位置有关，这也就是拉丁语中的“场所精神”。所以我们认为建筑不是愿景在地理位置上的叠加，而是需要结合地点对建筑提出解决方案，所以你要让你自己、你的建筑、你的心态适应地区的需求。除了地区，还有社会和地方历史的典型需求，而不是让它们适应你。

So somehow this makes us grow the belief that architecture is related to the location where it belongs to. So we call it Latin, “genius loci”. So we really think that architecture is not a superimposition of a vision to the location. But is the location that calls for the solutions of architecture. So you adapt yourself, your architecture, your mentality to the needs of the locations. And not only the location, but typical needs of the society and the history of the place rather than the other way around.

JIANYELI WEST LANE RENOVATION 建业里西侧改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Q3

上海苏河湾万象天地项目中，你们是如何成功创造商业空间与城市的对话？

In Shanghai Suhe MixC World, how do you successfully create a dialogue between commercial space and its city?

Filippo：许多年来我们一直试图将建筑与城市及其场域重新联系起来。在上海苏河湾万象天地项目里，我们将这个理念发挥到极致。我们设计的是一个多功能的商业项目，它与城市没有边界，是一个真正的城市绿地。

For m any years, we always try to reconnect buildings to the city and to the con text that they belong to. And this partic ular case, we bring it to an extreme. Because we create a commercial and mix-used project that actually doesn't have any boundaries with the city, so it's a real park.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：我们实现了全面的整合，地面上的建筑通过公共空间的通道串联，与绿地空间连接，再联通地下的商业空间。我们通过保护标志历史建筑，传承这座城市的历史记忆，将公园边的天后宫、里弄与新的绿地空间和商业完全融合。

So we reach the complete integration, even the building that stay over ground, our passages through for public spaces to pass through and to reconnect to the park and to the commercial space that completely intervened under. Maintaining at the same time, also the heritage memories of the stratification of the city in the history by maintaining milestones. Buildings like the temple or like the lane houses that is on a park portion of the project, totally integrated with a new park and with a commercial space.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Andrea：从某种层面来说，这个地块本身就很有趣，因为它与上海的历史，与天后宫，与慎余里只有几步之遥，展现了东西之间的关系。地块上还有一栋Foster+Partners设计的塔楼，有着强烈的现代感。我们项目中的绿地空间，我们一直将其视为上海的未来。因此我们为上海打造了新的愿景，提出一种处理商业空间与城市之间关系的新方式，以及在上海的城市空间中引入自然环境。

Somehow the site itself was so interesting because people just say there was only different steps of the history of Shanghai and the Chinese temple, to the Shen Yu Li. The relation between the West and the East. And then there is the tower of Foster’s. So instead, there is the modern time. And then there is a park in our project that we always see it as the future of Shanghai. So a new vision for the city of Shanghai, A new way to approach the relation between commercial spaces and the city and a way of to reinforce the natural environment in the city of Shanghai.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Q4

Kokaistudios拥有“从一匙到整座城市”的专业素养。你们的设计理念是什么？

You have a broad range of expertise“from spoon to the city”. What’s your philosophy and design principle?

Andrea ： 我们总是喜欢将不同学科专业相融合。 以某种方式，模糊不同层次、不同尺度之间的界限。 在设计过程中，这使我们第一时间更好地了解不同的需求以及项目可能具有的不同尺度。

We think that all these disciplines. We like to mix them together. To somehow, blur the boundaries between the different levels, the different scales of the project. In the design, we believe that this allows us, first of all, probably so, to understand better the different needs at the different scales that the project can have.

BEFORE RENOVATION 改造前的中信泰富广场©KOKAISTUDIOS

AFTER RENOVATION 改造后的中信泰富广场©KOKAISTUDIOS

CITIC SQUARE RENOVATION 中信泰富广场改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：这是建立Kokaistudios的真正的用意。所以当Andrea和我在1999年创办这家公司时，我们了解了当时的市场趋势。由于当今项目的快速发展，以及不同设计实践之间的区别化，一种超专业化的趋势出现了。这些公司非常专注于不同的设计分支，这种方式带来了设计的重复性和模式化的风格。

It's a real intentional act of establishment of Kokaistudios. So when Andrea and I started this company in 1999, we really had an idea that the trend of the market due to the fast speed of project today, but as well the extreme differentiations between different practices in design. It's bringing a tendency of hyper-specialization. These firms are really, really specializing in different branch of design. And this process very often brings a repetition and a stereotype process of design.

相反，我们试图以某种方式重建一个类似文艺复兴时期的工作室，就像在文艺复兴时期的意大利，来自不同背景、文化背景，但各有专长的人聚集在工作室里，试图打破以前的规则，相互影响，并以清晰的头脑和开放的视野来开展项目。正像Andrea刚才提到的，这些都帮助我们设计真正新颖的项目。因为我们从不重复我们做过的事情或从过去的经验中学习。我们每天都在努力学习，在设计过程中保持谦虚。

So instead, Andrea and I, we have this vision to try to recreate somehow, like a Renaissance workshop. like in Italy during the Renaissance where people from different backgrounds, cultural backgrounds. but also experience of expertise, came all together in a workshop and tried to break the rules of what was done before. Influencing one each other and being able to approach the projects with a clear mind and open vision. So that's the reason as Andrea said, is helping us to create really novelty projects. Because we don't try to repeat what we did and learn from the past experience. But we try to learn every day, keeping a very strong modesty also in the design process.

CITIC SQUARE RENOVATION 中信泰富广场改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Q5

你们擅长将项目营造成一种旅程或体验，很有辨识度。如何描述你们的风格？

You create projects a s a journey, a new experience and very recognizable. How do you describe your style?

Andrea ： 设计旅程实际上是设计情感，是设计人与空间、光线、色彩、体验之间的关系。 这就是我们所做的。

The journey actually is to design emotion is to design a relation between the people and the space, the light, the color, the experience. So that's what we do.

CITIC SQUARE WASHROOM 中信泰富广场洗手间©KOKAISTUDIOS

CITIC SQUARE RENOVATION 中信泰富广场改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：从设计情绪着手才能使你成为讲故事的人而不仅仅是问题解决者，通过了解使用者的心理作为参考设计情绪的方法。因此，我们使用很多微妙的设计心理学的方式来创造空间。人们辨认出我们的设计是因为他们感觉到了，而不是因为他们看到了。它不是一种传统方式的表达风格，而是一种可以创造项目与空间的方法。

The approach to become a storyteller rather than just a formal problem solver, is the one that you are playing with emotions. You are playing with instruments of psychological design. So we create space using an incredible number of subtle psychological instruments. So the result is that the people recognize the place that we design because they feel it, not because they see it. So it's not a formal expression of style in the typical way, but is a formal approach to how to create a project.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Q6

作为Kokaistudios的领导者，你们是如何激励团队？

As the leader of Kokaistudios, how do you inspire the team?

Andrea：我们对工作充满热情，我们喜欢与团队分享项目过程中的每一刻。这对我们来说非常重要，这是让项目变得富有创造力的方式。

We are passionate about what we do. So that's why we like to share every single moment into the development of a project together with the team. And this for us is very important, because it's the way our project can really become innovative.

JIANYELI WEST LANE RENOVATION 建业里西侧改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：我们谦逊地做设计，我们每天都在学习。Andrea和我更多的是去倾听，而不是去教团队怎么做。在项目过程中，我们用 “是不是可以用其他方式呢” “你现在有什么想法” 类似的问题去启发团队。

We believe in the modesty of design, so we learn from every day. And Andrea and I are more listeners, rather than lecturing our team. And try always to enter in the project with questions like what if can be in other way? Or what you are thinking in this moment?

这也成为了我们的工作过程，我们称之为设计的“解构”过程。当你有了一个创意，你去拆分并解读它，去发现它的问题所在。在某种程度上，这是一种带有革命性质的方式，所以需要团队一起去做。这是非常痛苦的，它需要很多时间，但是带来非常大的创造力。

And this becomes a process. We call it the deconstructive process of design. So you build an idea, and then you try to demolish it and to try to break it and to see where it can be questioned. In a way, it's a revolution system. So you need to do this path together. It's very painful, because it takes quite a lot of time but it's extremely creative.

JIANYELI WEST LANE RENOVATION 建业里西侧改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：就像Andrea说的，我们与团队分享每个设计过程，每个项目的决策过程。我们是一个特殊和不寻常的团体，就像一个家庭、一群好朋友，我们拥有共同的愿景，一起工作，一起生活。

And the way Andrea was saying that we share each process, each moment is decision making process of the project, or even in the firm, we share with the team. It brings this office to be a very specific and very unusual group, like a family. It's like a group of buddies, that they really share a vision, and I believe in a way, to live together.

JIANYELI WEST LANE RENOVATION 建业里西侧改造©KOKAISTUDIOS

QUESTION ABOUT FUTURE

关于未来

Q7

您如何看待中国建筑未来的发展？

How do you foresee the future development of architecture in China?

Andrea：Renzo Piano使用过“修补城市”这个词，这也是我们在做的事情。我们试图通过“重组”为城市发展中被忽视的空间带来新的生命。

Renzo Piano uses this word of “mending the cities”, and I think is what we are trying to do with our projects lately. To try to reorganize and to give many new life to a city that has been left over.

K11 ART MALL K11艺术购物中心©KOKAISTUDIOS

Andrea：我们不仅在上海有项目，在很多地方都有项目，我们在国外也有一些项目。我们试图将在中国获得的经验带到东南亚，带到中东。这是一个非常有趣的时刻。在这一刻我们真的体会到这些年的经验对未来是非常有借鉴作用的。

So we have projects, and actually doing that, not only in Shanghai. We are doing everywhere. We actually have some projects abroad. We are trying to bring our experience in China to the southeast of Asia, to the Middle East as well. I think it's a very interesting moment somehow. I think the moment we are really (know) what we always did in these years will be very useful for the future.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo ：这是一个难得的机会，让我们以环境的角度去建造真正的可持续建筑，这也是全世界的需求。同时，过去二十年建筑的过度发展和全球化趋势，不仅为中国，也为全世界提供了一个重新思考的机会，建筑到底需要为人类提供什么？

It's an incredible opportunity，the problem of trying to really develop a sustainable architecture in our environmental point of view. And this is a global necessity. And at the same time, I call it the overdevelopment of architecture in the past 20 years ago, globalization. They give an opportunity, not only here in China, but here in China especially, but worldwide, of a rethinking moment about what architecture needs to provide.

SHANGHAI SUHE MIXC WORLD 上海苏河湾万象天地©KOKAISTUDIOS

Filippo：不是去投资建造更大尺度、更多的建筑。而是以一种非常可持续的方式，但不是简单意义上的可持续，去重新思考、去创造一个真正可持续的环境，一个真正可持续的建筑。这不仅是为了环境，也是为了城市中、地区里、地理范围内及身处经济闭环系统中的人们。我们正处于一个全球性建筑实践革命的时刻。

So not even more a huge speculation system of investment in large scale architecture, in terms of quantity, but really to rethinking to a very sustainable, and not sustainable in that easy way people use it. But it's a real sustainable architecture in terms of recreation of an environment that is sustainable, not only for the environments also for the people in the cities and in the region and in the landscape, and in a circular system of economy. We are in a moment of revolution of architecture practice worldwide.